Are bike fits worthless for mountain biking?
So I’m going to piss some people off with this statement but I feel it needs to be said -
A bike fit is extremely overrated for mountain biking.
I know that they have a place in some cases but for your average trail rider I think that they are close to worthless. First, bike fits usually just help you maximize your dysfunctions, which may result in a short term performance gain but does not really make you a better rider. Second, I strongly believe that seated pedaling is simply bad for the body in the first place and should be minimized, not fortified. Lastly, bike fits rarely take the technical skill side of trail riding into account.
Maximizing Your Dysfunctions
If you are performing a bike fit on a rider who does not have a clean Functional Movement Screen (2s on everything with no asymmetries) then you are no better than the doctor who prescribes pills before trying to get the patient to make the lifestyle changes needed to fix the real problem. How can you “fit” anything when someone can’t even touch their toes or perform a half-ass bodyweight squat without falling apart?
The only thing you are fitting is their dysfunctions to the bike. Allowing someone to lean even harder on bad movement so they can go further and faster is not really helping the situation. The fact that no one ever gets a fit that lasts forever should tell your something – since the fit did not fix the underlying problem of bad movement habits the body eventually develops pain in new areas. Fix the movement issue first and then see what needs to be done.
Seated Pedaling Should be Minimized, Not Fortified
A bike fit only “works” as long as you are sitting down – as soon as you stand up all the precious measurements go out the window and you are no longer benefitting from your investment. The problem is, as a trail rider you should be spending way more time standing up and only using seated pedaling to get ready for your next standing effort.
Standing up naturally takes care of any “fit” issues as it forces full knee extension, fuller hip extension, a straighter spine and less strain on the neck. Sitting down to pedal places your body in a jacked up position and a fit is simply trying to make the best of a bad situation. The less you are laying down hard efforts when sitting down the less you have to worry about your seat being 4 mm too low or some absurd thing like that.
On a side note, this is why singlespeed riding has gained the reputation it has as a way to “train” for riding your regular bike – it simply makes you stand up more and push a harder gear instead of clicking down and keeping your 90+ rpm spin going. It shouldn’t take a singlespeed to make you stand up and be a man on the trail.
Sure it’s harder but mountain biking is not about seeking the path of least resistance. On the trail, standing up more is the mark of a strong, confident rider and it also naturally takes care of “fit” issues.
The Technical Skill Side of Trail Riding
Trail riding requires a large degree of technical skill, which is something that most bike fits don’t take into account. To maximize your trail riding your want to outfit your bike in a way that will allow for maximum skill and efficiency – which means prioritizing the bike, not the rider.
For example, in order to corner effectively and feel confident on steep pitches you need a stem that is 60 mm or less – period. A longer stem makes steering sluggish and makes it tough to keep your weight back as the trail gets steeper. Switching out to a longer stem because your hip mobility sucks (see Maximizing Your Dysfunctions above) and the bike fit formula said that an 80-100 mm stem would “fit” you better is actually screwing up your trail riding, which is probably not what you wanted to spend money on.
On the trail you need to select your tool based on its ability to do what you want on the trail and then fit your body to that tool. Don’t force an inferior tool on yourself when what you really need is some good ol’ mobility and strength work.
I always have to bring some perspective back to the argument so people don’t think that I hate bike fits and that you should go get an angry mob and some torches and go get the guy who put that longer stem on your bike in the name of a “better bike fit”. Like I said before before, at the highest levels stuff like that does matter. Once you have a clean Functional Movement Screen then a bike fit can be helpful, especially if you spend a lot of time in the saddle.
However, they are a Q4 method for Q4 athletes (check out my article on the 4 Quadrants of Training (link to post) if you don’t know what Q4 means) and, like clipless pedals, can quickly become a crutch being sold to desperate riders who really need to re-evaluate how they ride and how they prepare for riding. Most people will always look for a magic bullet and I know that this will mostly fall on deaf and defensive ears, which is fine. However, if I can get a few riders to scratch their head and think about the points I’ve made then I’d happy.
So, I know that you have an opinion on this subject and I’d love to hear what it is. Post a comment below to let me know what you think…
-James Wilson
Hi James
You mentioned a 60mm stem or less in your article but nothing else on bike fit as far as what you believe is important. What about frame size? What are your thoughts on determining that in respect to being able to put down your best standing efforts?
Thanks
Jamie
PS: Got a 45lbs KB for Christmas and planning to put it to some use!
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 26th, 2011 at 8:42 am
I prefer a bit smaller bike for manueverability. I am a hair under 6 foot and prefer a medium/17 inch frame, although I am told a large frame would be better from a fit standpoint. I say go an the small size, it is easier to stand up and pedal a smaller bike.
45 pounder, huh? Have fun!
[Reply]
the trails i ride are a bit of both cross country and technical riding, seated pedaling is a requirement, that is unless i want to stand for 15 miles or you know have the bike stop on flatter sections of the trail. With that in mind i must say i disagree with the some of the bike fit you have described here. I prefer my bike to fit correctly in all aspects while focusing myself on proper pedal stroke, full leg extension, etc. The way i see it if you aren’t proficient at both pedaling while standing and sitting you are limiting yourself as both have their place.
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 27th, 2011 at 7:41 am
Thanks for the input but I guess I’d be curious to know why a bike fit makes you a more proficient seated pedaler? Does it actually make you better – as in fix bad movement – or does it just let you lean harder on the bad movement until something breaks? I think that it is the latter. Notice I never said to dismiss seated pealing, only that the usual mindset of “sit down most of the time and only stand when you need to” is backwards.
[Reply]
I see no point in fitting a mountain bike but fitting my road bike is the best thing I ever did. Mountain biking requires way to much movement to get any benifit from a fitting.
[Reply]
I tend to agree – they are way too costly got limited benefit – often done by unqualified bike mechanics but…….
I’ve just had knee surgery for cartilage injury to my right knee ( not caused by riding) and think if you regularly use cleats (which I agree you shouldn’t as flats rule) a fit for knee/cleat alignment may be useful. Prior to my surgery I was smahing the standing up riding and it had a big impact on my leg strength and fitness. Unfortunately since the knee operation (I’m 4 months post op) I have a great deal of difficulty achieving a powerful turn at the top of the pedal stroke but no trouble when sitting. When standing you are putting more pressure through the knee with the knee/leg at a greater angle than sitting. It took me a month of riding to be able to do one stroke standing up – was incredibly tough. I’m working on my leg strength using the MTB Strength Program but smashing it standing up seems a long way off for me.
[Reply]
It is interesting that the riding position best for our bodies ( i.e. not sitting down) is the way that kids and “groms” ride thier bikes. As soon as they need to accelerate, or travel uphill, they stand up pretty straight and push down on the pedals.
I suspect the Bike Fit paradigm is one of the causes of pooe technique: butt glued to the saddle, stem length for “fit” and not control. Adults are meant to apparently assume one position and just grind away. What a nasty way to have fun, let alone control a bike over undulating terrain.
[Reply]
Your point may soon be moot: like many new trail bikes in 2012, my Ibis Mojo SL-R came with a 142×12 through-axle at the rear so it’s not possible to mount it a stationary trainer for a bike fit.
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 27th, 2011 at 7:47 am
That won’t stop them – they will create a new bike fit stand to accommodate the new bikes. Where there is $$$ there is a will and a way to get it…
[Reply]
Hi James- well, you’re right about at least one thing here- you’ve pissed me off (to use your word choice). I’ve read your blog and e-mail posts for a long time and generally have tried to glean the helpful morsels and ignore the arrogant anti-roadie, anti-endurance rider rants, but I’m done. I think you will ultimately find that there is really no call for taking such a tone-you clearly have a lot of knowledge to share and people are clearly learning from you. Who you choose to alienate is your own business I suppose and you seem to take some pride in it- but I personally know a large number of ass-kicking, hard riding, podium winning riders who split their time between the road bike and the mountain bike and find their success through an open mind and a respectful attitude. Oh- and my recent bike fit took 15 minutes, a few millimeters adjustment to my saddle angle and stopped the pelvic busitis I was plagued with in Endurance events all last season (oh, that’s right, I’m not a “mountain biker” because my competitive events last 7-8hours at a stretch and often take me for dozens of miles at a time on Forest Service roads). Anywho- I’m done with James Wilson and the attitude.
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 27th, 2011 at 10:34 am
For every road rider on dirt I piss off I find a mountain biker who has been looking for this message. I have nothing against roadies or endurance riders (I have a lot who actually use my program with great success) but I don’t like trail riders getting told the wrong advice. Drawing a distinction between different types of riding isn’t wrong despite what the Politically Correct Police tell you.
Again, if you can find something specific I said that you have a problem with then I will be happy to address it but making blanket statements tells me that you may have your mind made up already and read my post looking for justification rather than info. I made my case for why bike fits are not good for a trail rider who has mobility and strength deficits, what is your case for the other point of view?
[Reply]
Though I agree with some of your statements here I’m in the same situation as Kevin. My riding is a mix of xc and technical trails, so sometimes I have to climb for more than an hour to get the singletrack down. It’s easy to lower the saddle but I can´t pedal too long with a short stem without pain in my back, specially in that ‘epic’ days, but I miss a shorter stem when I’m going down. So, it’s got to be a compromise..
Genci
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 27th, 2011 at 10:27 am
How is your hip mobility and movement? That is kind of my point – don’t compromise because the engine needs to get fixed. Fix the engine (you) and then see what you need to do. Odds are you will find the shorter stem isn’t a problem for your back anymore.
[Reply]
Hey James,
I agree that traditional bike fit does more harm than good for mountain biking. However, I think that is only because it comes from road riding which is a different sport entirely. Instead of eliminating bike fits, why not simply develop mountain bike fits? Certainly, a certain stem length is ideal for every rider it is simply much shorter than most riders think.
[Reply]
It does baffle me how easy it is to sell people services and gear that will magically improve their riding when the money could be spent much better on a bit of professional training. as for fit my trail bike is a 16″ frame with 50mm stem and 775mm bars because what I value most is manuverability on rapid decent. if you were worried about sitting down and peddling then wouldst it be better to focus on cyclocross rather then trails?
The problem I suffer on the bike and afterwards is shoulder ache so I suppose that could be linked to my set up but I think that its more likely down to poor upper body strength and knowing almost no stretches for my shoulders.
Keep up the good work James very good points as always and happy birthday
[Reply]
James, what type of pedaling strategy do you suggest for someone racing a 50 or 100 mile race? Stand as much as possible?
This post is another classic.
6ft on a medium frame with a 50mm stem? Yeah, tell me your thoughts about “fit”.
[Reply]
James,
Have to up seat at some height – what methodology do you use to setup seat height (of cousres proper sag has been set)?
Thanks
[Reply]
Hi James,
You’ve really put the cat among the pigeons here my man.
I have to totally agree with you that if someone getting a “bike fit” is getting something based on road fit then that’s crazy.
It is fair to say that some riders obviously have to sit and pedal for very long periods on fairly smooth terrain, that’s the way with some races, but that’s certainly not what most of us do – you’re right.
Those guys on like Steve Jones (from Dirt Magazine) the Trans Provence race would have the ideal set-up, in my mind, for sure they will need decent seat height as they do have to sit and grid up those long long Alpine climbs, but they sure do get their fun on the downs. That’s what the Reverb seatpost is about, I’m sure you agree.
So, it’s right that most mountainbikers shouldn’t base our riding position and technique on what long distance endurance guys do. We should probably be more like the Trans-provence riders. You’re right. For them the proper “riding” is all standing. Sitting is just to get to the action without getting toooooo tired.
I’ve read a lot of your posts and you’ve definitely encouraged me to stand to [flat] pedal and I can climb so much better standing than I ever could. Like many XC guys, I used to be very wary of standing as I thought I’d blow up. But, yes, once you get strong, standing on steep climbs is good. Very good IMO.
Personally, I do think bike size (so that the bike “fits” the rider is important. I think you’re right again about the 60mm max. stem length as it makes the bike steer right – you guys out there who say you can’t get low and/or forward enough on seated grinder climbs, hey, bend those elbows.
I do, though, think the front end of the bike needs to be right length, you can’t do much to change the distance between the crank centre and a line falling straight from the bars. I am 6’2″ on a Large Specialized Enduro and if I try a Medium my arms seem to be too far under me on steep descents, the front wheel wants to get behind my head. It makes for a lovely twitchy tight woods bike but it’s too unstable on steep downs. For me it’s all about downtube length, I used to be on an XL and it was arguments like yours that got me to try the Large.
One of the best tips I ever got [this was from Chris Ball at Dirt School] was that you should be able to look down and see most of the head tube in your “attack” position.
So, I think it’s fair to say that the bike has to fit, but – no – you definitely don’t need a roadie style “bike fit” to play in the woods.
Thanks for all the hard work you put into this James,
have a great 2012, I hope it brings you all you might wish for.
Same to all you Bike James fans out there.
[Reply]
The title of this post should be “Are ROAD bike fits worthless for mountain biking?” The answer would largely be yes.
As a retailer, we consider mountain bike fits to be more holistic, realizing that mountain biking is much more dynamic. Once we get past frame size, we have suspension setup, cleat position, seat height/fore/aft/tilt, bar orientation, control placement, etc. These are elements of a mountain bike “fit” we need to be thinking of.
Your posts are frustratingly myopic, but they sure do get some click-thru and pages views…dunno what they about your credibility for things not ‘strength training’ related though.
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 27th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
If that is what you are doing for riders at your shop then you are doing them a great service but I think we can both agree that when someone says the words “bike fit” the idea that comes to mind is optimizing your seated pedaling position, often times through using a longer stem and/ or larger frame. Even then, often times the real thing that needs to be “fit” is the person through better movement.
Even when discussing a road bike fit for a road biker I would still point to my arguments about the need for a clean movement screen before administering a fit or else you may just be allowing them to lean even harder on the bad movement. How you can tell someone who can’t touch their toes that they need a higher rise or longer stem truly baffles me. The elephant in the room is that they can’t move right – fix that and then worry about fitting them to the bike.
I’m not sure how myopic it is to bring a new perspective to old habits in the cycling world but I appreciate your opinion. I hope that more retailers take the time and effort you do to get their customers set up for trail riding and hopefully making them move better instead of using stems and handlebars to make up for bad movement.
[Reply]
Hi James,
I’m not sure my comments are of any value here, but I recently got a 29er because someone suggested it to me. I’m 5’10″ and I actually really love it! It seems the right fit for me although when I’m on the trails I sometimes want to put my foot down going around some tight turns and find that I almost can’t reach the ground, however, I like the size of this bike because I feel like I’m on a “monster truck (bike)” and can just plow over everything. I don’t really have a lot of experience with bikes and my last bike was a Cannondale F9 which I really loved, but I wanted dual suspension and decided to upgrade. While I’m not really very knowledgeable about bikes, I’m pretty adaptable. I do also have a road bike (my first one) a 1968 Peugeot with Campignolo upgrades that someone gave me. I don’t have a lot of exeperience with road bikes but this is a great starter for me and I’m hoping that by the time I get a newer model I will know what I’m doing!
[Reply]
I think riding is what you make it and for me I like to do trails and sometimes back country roads. I’m 5′ 8″ and was told that I should have a 17″ frame but when I tried the smaller frames it felt like I was compressed between the handlebars and the seat. I went with the 19″ frame, 2006 Kona Dawg, and I love it, the larger frame size is much more comfortable for me. I set my bike up so that I can have a more upright position so it’s never a strain on the neck. I also like clipless pedals, I have “Time Attack Z” pedals which have a larger platform so it’s very easy to clip and unclip. I find the clipless pedals much better for climbing while sitting back on the seat and applying even, steady, circular pressure. I’ve learned how to look ahead and see what’s coming at me so I can clip or un-clip as necessary. Sometimes I incorporate my rides into my cross-fit workouts but the bottom line is I don’t make riding so complicated, I just like to get out there and ride for the fun of it.
[Reply]
I’ve been reading this blog for a year now & have been constantly impressed with the info you provide & also like the “tone” you carry…. And I happen to be a roadie, triathlete, mountain biker, water skier… All at competitive levels. My point is that I have never been offended as was suggested in an earlier post by any of your comments. Thank you for the info you provide. It has helped me across the board in all my sports. Now, if I could only get that Turkish get up move down…..
[Reply]
“I say go an the small size, it is easier to stand up and pedal a smaller bike.”
Maybe, maybe not. The geometry of the frame can make a big difference. Last season I moved from a 17 inch G2 Gary Fisher, to a 19 inch Specialized Stumpjumper, (both hardtails) and I found the SJ to be much, much better out of the saddle.
[Reply]
While I agree with you about 29ers (big wheel makes things easier so you have less need to develop skills, so my goal is to pick up a BMX cruiser, 24″ wheels, next year to build some better handling skills), I agree with you to some extent but not everything on this blog entry.
So much of mountain biking originated from road biking, but it’s now going towards more of a moto and BMX style. I prefer the moto/BMX style myself, because I find it’s more fun downhill–which is why I ride.
1. Bike fit == road bike fit. I have had several bike fits due to a bad back, which was caused by hip inflexibility. Now that I can do full squats plus a weighted bar for the first time in my life, and I was refitted. Guess what? It was specifically a mountain bike fit, not a road fit. I ride with flat pedals, a wide bar, and balloony tires, but I need to have an idea of how I can pedal without further destroying my knee (mensicus cleanout and ACL recon this past year).
2. I ride with a 70mm stem (which doesn’t fall into either category you listed in this blog) and 28.5″ (724mm) and I’m happy with it. I’m not going to go out and panic and get a shorter stem because you say it means I can’t corner with it. I can corner just fine. I could get a 60mm stem, but that feel like nitpicking at this point. I would say 80mm or higher are out of favor anyway. Most people today looking for 80mm/70mm or shorter. The problem with the 50mm didn’t have anything to do with my hips or low back, but my upper back. So I’m happy with my mountain bike fit with my 70mm stem.
3. Personally, I ride uphill to go downhill. That’s the fun part for me. However, where I live, I have to get uphill somehow and there is a lot of climbing. See #1, the reference to my knee surgery, on why I’m not going to pedal uphill standing the entire time. It’s also exhausting. I prefer to save more of my standing for DHs, and just spin up. As much as I’d like to stand up and pedal uphill for 2-4 miles at a time, it’s not happening. It would drain all my energy for the downhills.
4. Getting off clipless pedals was one of the best things I could ever do. I was going back and forth between platforms and clipless for the past 5 years, but I’m very happy being completely platforms since this summer. Clipless are great for the spin bike though.
Clipless has come down from road biking, just like the 29″ (700cc) wheels. Personally, people can have them–along with their carbon too.
I get your point, but it may have come across much harsher than you were intending.
[Reply]
THERE ARE A BUNCH OF RATTY PEOPLE RIDING BIKES!!
AGREE WITH FITTING – NEED SHORTED FRAME, AND STEM; AGREE WITH PLATFORMS, NOT CLIPLESS; BUT MOST OF ALL, IS’NT IT SUPPOSED TO BE FUN?
HAVE RECENTLY BUILT UP A SINGLESPEED AS A TRAINING TOOL, AND SPEND 2 – 4 HOURS A WEEK ‘URBAN-CRUSING’, RIDING URBAN TRAILS [STREET] USING THE SIDEWALKS T OBUNNY-HOP AND RAMP, WORK [STANDING UP] THE HILLS AS HARD AS POSSIBLE, AND THEN BECAUSE OF THE GEARING, FREEWHEEL ON FLAT AND DOWNHILL SECTIONS. CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT A DIFFERENCE IT HAS MADE – REALLY LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING UP IN THE MORNING FOR MY RIDE. STILL DO THE ‘LONG-HAULS’ OF 3 – 5 HOURS ON A WEEKEND BUT AS MOST OF THAT IS ON FARM ROADS WITH ABOUT 30% TECHNICAL, AN NOW DRIVING TO THE TECHNICAL SECTIONS WHEN POSSIBLE [ ONCE EVERY CUPLA WEEKS].
SUGGEST IT MAY BE AN OPTIONAL TIME TO FINE-TUNE PERSONAL ‘FIT’, AS I BELIEVE EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT
ANYWAY HAVE A GREAT FESTIVE SEASON AND “ENJOY” THE RIDE……………………………..
[Reply]
I had major leg surgery 2 years ago, reconstructed leg, sheared off my Tibea Platoe, I started riding a mountain bike around 6 months later to get back in shape, started off slow on Rails to trails, and progressed to very technical single track, problem was my knee wouldn’t let me stand and peddle, it just wouldn’t make it past the top stroke, but sitting and peddling up hills really held me back.
Around a month ago I decided to try and see if I could stand and peddle, and to my amazement I could!
I only use flats, and now I can get up the hills at least twice as fast, I have been trying to stand whenever possible and for longer bursts, instead of downshifting going uphill I’m now upshifting while standing, and putting great distance on riders sitting and spinning behind me.
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 30th, 2011 at 7:42 am
Awesome story, thanks for sharing!
[Reply]
Hi James,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying around bike fitting, singlespeeds and basic strength training.
I see many riders with saddle too low but often these are ‘have a go’ types who just bought a mountain bike off ebay. They self fitted and are reaping the benefits (negative).
Many more experienced riders are lazy, they like to cruise about sat down, as soon as the trail goes up they sit and spin the smallest gear they have. I think this is a time/life issue and unwillingness to train harder to get faster, ‘its too hard’ is often an excuse i hear. Most use MTB as a ‘bit of exercise’ but dont take it that seriously. So for them that’s fine. Personally that does not fit my profile or many of your readers i suspect.
Bike fit – i have had one done for road bike and it helped me resolve injury issues for road bike and find a powerful setup for 12hr MTB solo bike races, which are a lot of sitting and spinning (more like road riding really), to minimise fatigue, but for my trail bike i had already found the setup by trial and error and just some basic advice. So is far less critical in my experience too.
Singlespeeds – When i ride my rigid singlespeed 29er I have found some other useful things, riding with a group, people expect me to be slower, but the singlespeed has made me adapt and become stronger. So in fact i am not slower but faster in many situations, especially climbs, even without suspension. Standing is a common occurance, to avoid trail punishment and to overcome the gear, its great fun, it also helps me go faster on suspension bikes – i learn to live with the battering i get on rigid bike, so i brake less when i have more suspension, i also select my lines better, instead of letting the bike get me out of trouble. Is 29er better?, not sure, but its different.
Never thought i would say it but this singlespeed bike is my ‘go to’ bike most days now. The Orange 5 (a perfect bike for around here) is left in the garage quite often. Bottom line – its a great training tool for developing bike specific strength – if you don’t mind working hard.
On training – I am using bodyweight exercises from UMTBWO and specific core strength, backing that up with singlespeed riding and some longer rides for endurance. I bought a couple of kettlebells and i am exploring using those to great effect on all bikes i ride. My overall strength is much better and i ride with a confidence i have never had before. Many thanks for guiding me along the path!.
[Reply]
NICE ONE MATT – SOUNDS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME AS ME – LOVE THE SINGLE SPEED AND LOOK FORWARD TO A GOOD WORK-OUT
ALL THE BEST TO ALL FOR 2012
[Reply]
To George, you mention you run a 16″ frame with 775mm bars and your shoulders bother you after a ride. Since you’re running a smaller frame, your arms are probably also not very long, yet you’re running a overly wide bar (which seems to be the in thing today). Why not shorten your bar to something like 720mm, it just might solve your shoulder problems…
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
December 31st, 2011 at 8:43 am
The wider bars offer better leverage for standing climbing and steering. I fought the wide bars too but found that they do help. Odds are the shoulders hurt from disengaging the lats and letting shoulder blades slide up, placing stress on the shoulders. I have the same issue…
[Reply]
I agree with your stem suggestion but I would extend the range to include 80mm but this is just splitting hairs.
You are right that mountain bike fits are pointless when you spend a lot of time out of the saddle. But, the right frame size is important. I am 6′ 1.5″ and have been riding a large for 15 years. I just switched over to an XL just to see if it was any better for me. At first the bike felt slow and hard to handle, especially in the parking lot. But out on the trail I found I had much more traction in nearly every situation and could ride faster while feeling as if I was riding slower. The only thing I gave up was a little bit of weight and the bike is a little less flickable, but all of the other gains were well worth it.
[Reply]
bikejames Reply:
January 1st, 2012 at 8:54 am
I would agree that 20 mm seems to be splitting hairs but I tried a 70 mm stem after years on a 50-60 mm stem and was shocked at how sluggish the steering was and how disconnected I felt.
[Reply]