James, thanks for sticking with this argument. I don’t have the background in kineseology to know whether any of this is factually correct, but my own experience seems to match the observations you’ve outlined. Beyond that, however:

As riders I think we should all take the time to try this approach. Challenging our assumptions s always beneficial – if the outcome of that challenge isn’t an improvement the learning process itself is a critical portion of training. Questioning our shared assumptions about the way things should be done is part of progression and I see this argument as being highly beneficial in that regard.

Besides, flat pedals are awesome – just be sure to get some thin ones.

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I don’t disagree that good flats and 5-10s can be just as good as clipless, but if you are racing XC and only use clipless when racing then you are asking for problems, IMO. You need to be comfortable and familiar with your clips and shoes. Wearing them 2-3 a month for races only you might struggle getting in and out and most likely crash because of it if you need to dab or dismount. I would equate riding flats to train and clipless to race to riding a road bike to train for MTB racing. Practice and train with the equipment you plan to race with.

The biggest problem is that people think that clipless pedals are there to help pull them through the top, which isn’t the purpose. What I was taught was that clipless pedals are meant to #1 secure your foot to the pedal and #2 help pull through the bottom until your down stroke leg is at 1:00 and in a power position. This is for seated pedaling only, not tech sections or shorter power climbs where the rider should be out of the saddle.

My son keeps asking me to go clipless and I refuse to get him any because he hasn’t learned how to pedal properly with flats yet. Once he masters flats I will consider it if he decides to race, but right now he is only trail riding so I don’t see the advantage for him to go clipless, even if he was a perfect pedaler.

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Hey James. I tried clipless pedals for about 3 weeks after I got my mountain bike and surmised very quickly it was a bad idea, even though everyone I saw was riding clipless and suggested I do the same. I went against the crowd and dumped my pedals and clipless shoes, got some 5.10′s instead with good pedals.. and have never looked back. When I found your website discussing this same topic, it was a breath of fresh air ! I really don’t get the cipless thing, as I seem to pass many riders wearing clipless. It doesn’t seem to help them much.

Clipless is downright dangerous. Overuse is only one example.. but staying locked into your bike and your head and neck hitting the ground causing paralysis is scary. Not to mention tumpling off the side of a mountain because you can’t unclip. There are many times, I get in situations where I think “thank goodness” I wasn’t wearing clipless here. I’m here on the front range and you can get hurt real quick.

Unfortunately, I’m not sure clipless will go away anytime soon. One of the biggest obstacles in the way are the LBS themselves. Walk into any LBS and tell them you want 5.10 shoes and excellent flat pedals. They won’t have them. Look around.. 99% of what they sell is all for clipless. IMO, it’s not because they are necessarily the best for the rider, but because they generate a lot of profits as well.

My new quote… “Clipless” is for the “Clueless”

Keep Rockin James !

- Joe

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I know I said something similar before, but after another ride, I am even more amazed:

The other day I went riding with a bunch of guys on 20 pound XC bikes (with clips obviously) and I was riding number 2 in line for the full three hour ride, much of the time right on the tire of the leader…on my slalom bike and flat pedals. Living in a city, I don’t get to trail ride more than a few times a month, so it isn’t like I am used to long rides either.

27lb bike with 34t chainring, chainguide, 25-11 cassette and flat pedals vs. 20lb bike with full XC gearing with clips.

I will stand by flat pedals.

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I can say I’m glad to see “…& why I won’t let it go” in the title of your blog post because I have to admit, the last time I saw a post on this topic I thought: “Can’t this guy let it go??”

It’s not that I disagree with you — at least not entirely. Maybe I’m just programmed to resist people when they seem to be getting too evangelical about anything.

I don’t know the research on this, but let me start here: I swapped to flats on full-suspension bike several months ago because your ideas on the subject were interesting to me. There’s a lot I enjoy about the change. I’m more confident pushing my technical limits. I’ve re-learned how to lift the rear end of the bike without “cheating.” It gets me thinking about powering from my hips, as I’ve learned from your programs.

But there are downsides. My feet don’t always land where I want them on the pedals when I’m hitting lots of roots or ruts at speed (and I’m pretty good at staying planted). When I’m moving fast and suddenly hit a super steep climb, where I have to drop several gears fast, it’s almost impossible to nail a high-cadence rhythm at the exact moment you need to engage the drivetrain, and the result is often spinning out and losing the pedals. These are just examples.

Meanwhile I’ve also kept my SPDs on my hardtail, and I love them. I don’t race much (or well). But I often ride long, and I know I can ride much longer clipped in. The idea of riding 40 miles on flats seems silly and unnecessary. With clipless I can use my hips and all the techniques you promote, but also dip into my roadie toolkit. Also, my feet stay planted exactly how I’ve set my cleats. And I can “cheat” with lifting the bike and dance through technical sections more gracefully. Oh, and there’s that supersatisfying “click” when you step in at the beginning of a ride. I love that sound!

I’ve never had an over-use injury related to bike or pedal setup, because my bike is set up right, and I’m not convinced that properly set-up clipless pedals have anything to do with over-use injuries. I’m not an expert, but haven’t seen evidence of this in my own experience or among the folks I ride with.

Overall, I think you have a lot of valid points but apply your argument too broadly. From what I’ve seen on your blog and in your videos, you’re an awesome rider that gravitates to riding that’s somewhere between all-mountain and freeride. more power to you. Not everyone rides like that however, and I think there’s a lot more room for clipless pedals within the many worlds of cycling than you acknowledge.

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It’s true your feet can come off flat pedals, proper technique eliminates a lot of this, but when they do come off it is less likely to be a surprise because you aren’t doing the wacky “pull-up” movement. In addition, your feet will always come off flats when you want them to. Advantage: flats

Cadence is not a real issue, sure i don’t spin at 115 rpm like on the road bike but 95rpm is quite sustainable with flats when you are practiced. A lot of cadence objections come from clipless guys who are using their polished clipless technique with flat pedals… the feet go flying everywhere.

Repetitive injury is a real issue with clipless pedals, particularly those with very little float. I haven’t heard of such knee and hip injuries being associated with flats – probably because there is “infinite float.”

Fun factor, flat pedals are way more fun. After a new indoor MTB park opened in town the guys who went there ditched the clipless for flats and some 5.10 or 661 sticky rubber, they are having a lot of fun and though i never asked they haven’t re-installed the clipless pedals this season.

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Just because you can’t find research supporting more power in clipless doesn’t mean anything. Can you find research saying they don’t produce more power or have other negatives? To say they are the cause of overuse injuries is like saying shoes or socks are the cause. Just about everyone uses socks, so they must be the cause. How much foot rotation really happens on a flat pedal, and who is to say that the running motion is appropriate for biking? There is no “natural” biking motion since it is a recent invention and not part of out evolutionary makeup. Also, the hips can’t do much of anything for power. They’re basically a hinge dependent on the muscles around them, primarily the glutes and hip flexors. Those muscles primarily power the femur and lower leg which are the only way to affect the foot/pedal in the fore and aft directions. Quads and hamstrings do most of the extension and retraction of the foot, but only with support of the hip muscles. Maybe I’m not a very good rider, but when I’m bombing down a rocky section of trail I depend on the clipless connection to keep my shoes from coming off the pedals. Also, since I ride a brain rear shock, I have to use them to lift the rear tire at times. Nobody likes to come off and be stuck with one foot in the pedal and no way to get leverage to unclip, but that happens to me about once a season and stuttering downhills are at least a weekly occurrence. I lost a cleat during an XC race once and kept coming off powering up hills, much to the annoyance of a gal I’d just passed. After a few times I finally let her go so she wouldn’t think I was intentionally messing with her. Of course, a regular MTB shoe without a cleat on Crank Brothers pedals is a lot worse than flats.

How do flats work on loose rocky uphills where you’re trying to keep constant power to the rear wheel? Even with “traction pins” or whatever they’re called, it seems like it would be a lot harder to “pedal in a circle”. Agreed that is a misuse of the hip flexors, but, hopefully, not for very long. And how about suspension? A downhill bike with lots of travel is pretty different from the average XC bike. Do some research on hard-tails to emphasize the differences. Flats are undoubtedly “better” on certain bikes and certain terrain, but there are lots of different bikes and terrain variations out there. I’d also guess there a high correlation between injury and tightness of the cleats. I started off with tight SPD’s and soon had them almost all the way loosened in addition to the M float lateral freedom. I figure they’re about right if I sometimes pull out of the top. You raise good points for discussion, but I think the use environment needs to be a major consideration. I doubt one size fits all or that there is one right answer.

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:33 am

You can’t apply clipless “sit and spin” technique to flats. Once you get the technique down you’ll be faster on the uphills and be able to maintain better traction (I consistently make climbs standing up with flats I see other riders spin out on in their high cadence spin). So, while you can’t pedal through rough section as mindlessly as you can with clipless pedals you learn to float those sections, hammer harder where you can and then jam on the downhills with the confidence of someone who knows they can just step away if things get rowdy which all adds to to being just as fat if not faster. Again, if they offer no advantage then why use them? What is their point?

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“It’s true your feet can come off flat pedals, proper technique eliminates a lot of this, but when they do come off it is less likely to be a surprise because you aren’t doing the wacky “pull-up” movement. In addition, your feet will always come off flats when you want them to. Advantage: flats”

I completely disagree. If you are well practiced on clipless pedals unclipping is never an issue. Even in a crash my feet pop out without even thinking about it – it has become a natural instict for me. Unfortunately the learning curve is quite steep and you are bound to take a few unexpected tumbles when first learning how and when to unclip.

Anyone who ‘pulls-up’ with clipless pedals isn’t using them correctly.

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:30 am

Again, how can you say that? I know dozens of riders who have gotten hurt because they could not get unclipped, some of them high level pros. You simply can not say that getting out of them is never an issue – for you perhaps but that is not the case for most riders. Also, if they offer no real advantage over flats why go through that learning curve? Why not devote it to learning to corner or manual, two skills that are more valuable on the trail?

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Honestly, I think a lot of the folks that take it so personally (the clips/flats debate) are the clipless riders who are afraid to admit that having the “cutting edge” technology in gear doesn`t make a rider fast. I in no way mean that as a shot to anyone in particular. All I mean is that there is a HUGE culture of riders that believe that having the latest and greatest gear means they are serious and dedicated, and that riding anything less makes you a “recreational” rider. The attitude was exactly the same in BMX. All you ever hear is “if you want to be serious at the higher proficiencies you HAVE to clip in”. Well, one of the biggest prize money bmx race events was a flat-pedal only race. The same pros raced each other, the results were pretty typical, and the speeds were pretty much the same as any other race, just on flats. And we`re talking a sport where pedaling cadences are frequently well above 185. Mountain bike culture has evolved to hold the gear in such high regard and with such esteem that if yo`ure not using what everyone else is, you must not be as dedicated. Those riders are afraid to even TRY something different, scared to death to find out that they are, in fact, just as accomplished on less gear. The hypocrisy here is the elitist embracing of single speed bikes. “pfft…I finished that trail with only one gear.” Yeah? I did it on flat pedals. “whatever, flats are retarded”. Why do you like single speed? “Duh. It`s simpler. It makes you have to make the most of what you have. It teaches you how to REALLY ride a bike.” Wow, flats have that same effect. “yeah….well…no one uses them so they just suck.”

Dig what I`m sayin` here? By all means, ride what you like. But don`t belittle or berate something just because YOU refuse to give it value. If being clipped in is the be-all-end-all, well keep on riding them. If you`re willing to give flats an honest go, you`ll probably end up having a lot of fun and find the changes it makes to your riding style beneficial. Then you can say to the trailhead monkey pro wannabe`s “hey, just turned in a PR on this trail…on FLATS. What`s that? Sure, let`s see how my flat times compare to your clipped in times right now, I`m good for another lap. Oh, I understand, yeah, I`d be tired too after riding as hard as I`m sure you guys do. We can hit a lap together next time, when you`re recovered.”

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>> Repetitive injury is a real issue with clipless pedals, particularly those with very little float. I haven’t heard of such knee and hip injuries being associated with flats – probably because there is “infinite float.”

Unfortunately, for me, with flats on my MTB, I will have knee injury in no time when traveling about 10km on the road. On SPDs I can last longer, but I still use flats on my MTB just because it’s just easier to get out of the door whenever I feel like it.

On my Roadie however, yes it’s definitely a clipless setup with Duraace pedals, and I can go for miles and miles without knee pain. So, I’m not sure where James got the 85% overuse injuries data from, as I really suffer when riding flats, therefore, MTB is relegated to short rides only, unless I feel the need to “dress up” with my Specialized MTB shoes, fix in my XT SPDs.

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“Honestly, I think a lot of the folks that take it so personally (the clips/flats debate) are the clipless riders who are afraid to admit that having the “cutting edge” technology in gear doesn`t make a rider fast”

I have to somewhat agree with you. I ride flats, always have, but do not have any issues with clips, they’re just not for me, but it is interesting that a good majority of riders that get really upset about this debate appear to be clippless riders? I may be stepping out of line here, it is just an observation I have made over the last 8 years I’ve been riding/racing. Not sure that I agree it’s a technology thing, but clipless riders appear ‘threatened’ by the arguement.

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hey james,
i have read all your articles on clips vs clipless. i agree that clipped pedals are not for everyone and should not be given to beginners ever. i also agree that cover over bad pedal technique and more than likely create knee problems. i do think though that there are good for certain kinds of rides and rider.
while i know that your blog and facility focus mainly on downhill and four cross and generally you are not a cross country trainer or particularly a fan of xc racing as you have described many times as road racing on dirt.
i agree that sometimes xc races are like this and sometimes not at all those races regardless of there technical level are made for people who love them and like clipless pedals have a place in the cycling world.
i am as you can tell into xc racing and let me tell you some of the tech sections that might not be tricky when you are either riding 6inch plus bikes or are fresh are not that simple when you thing your lungs are going to pop.
i like to take what i think will help me from your blog. when i do a indoor interval session i warm up and warm down not clipped in to try to improve my technique as a result of one of your articles.
i read books about other types or training and take what i think will help me from them as well.
i have to say that the constant harping on about clipless pedals has stopped me visiting your blog as much and thats a shame as i really like what you do, we get the point man move on.
it’s not just trail riders using your blog and my clipless pedals will always be on my bike. i have even put flats on my training mtb that i use sometimes as a way to further improve my pedal technique but this is only so that when i am clipped in on my race xc bike i am even more efficient. please though let it go and give us some more of your thoughts on other biking and strength issues

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:27 am

Sorry, as long as riders as being lied to about their benefits and they are causing injuries as a result I won’t drop it. Clipless gained their popularity through the false assumption you want to pull up and through which has been shown to be false so how exactly do they help you?

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Gord sums it up for me.
“If you are well practiced on clipless pedals unclipping is never an issue. Even in a crash my feet pop out without even thinking about it – it has become a natural instict for me. Unfortunately the learning curve is quite steep and you are bound to take a few unexpected tumbles when first learning how and when to unclip.
Anyone who ‘pulls-up’ with clipless pedals isn’t using them correctly.”

Yes flats have benefits for some styles of riding, but keeping James point’s in mind i’m sticking with the clipsless.

I tried flats again today, foot slipped off over a rough section of track. Copped a nasty pedal to my shin, now my shin has a hole….cool. I argue that flats cause injuries

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:25 am

Wear some light shin pads until you get your technique dialed, feet flying off the pedals requires pressing the feet down into the pedals and will get better with practice.

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Nico clipped in…… let his record humble your rant

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:24 am

Dude, you know I respect you as a rider but great athletes in the past have been wrong, lets base this discussion on more than “that is how so-and-so” did it…

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Fist let me address the false myths about clipless pedals that you’ve harped on frequently.

#1 – Clipless pedals are difficult or slow to get out of. This is simply BS, propagated by people who tried clipless once and then threw them away.
We all know how fast washing out the front end puts you on the ground, even with flats, and riding SPDs I can always get the leg out in time to save it. Like anything, doing it takes practice. James when you decided to become a fitness professional were you instally endowed with the knowledge and wisdom? Of course not, it takes practice time and work.
To learn clipless you start off inside propped against a wall clipping out and in, then you do some XC rides, until getting in and out of clipless pedals will be instant muscle memory that you dont even have to think about and takes literally zero time to get out of. Most people make it to this level in 10 rides or so, but definately ease into it until you are comfortable.

#2 – Clipless pedals can cause injury by trapping your feet in the pedals during a fall. Slightly related to #1. Clipless pedals release at 5 degrees of rotation. Even if a fall catches you completely by surprise and you have no idea its coming clipless pedals release at 5 degrees of rotation. If youve really binned it, your feet will come out, always. Ive had wrecks when I was a beginner that all of the sudden Im on the ground, I never consciously clipped out, but my feet are out of the pedals.

Now lets talk about flats.
You’ve talked about the (false) injury potential of clipless ad nasuem , but Ive never heard you mention the injury potential of flats. I think we have all seen the DH videos of when a guys feet come off the pedals, which begins an all too predictable sequence of straddling the top tube until the front end digs in and the rider is launched down the trail. Just recently over on Lee’s site a guy wrote in to talk about his broken leg when his feet came off the flats.
There [i]is[/i] a reason many of the pros use clipless. I never heard any basketball coaches criticise Michael Jordan’s jump shot……

You like to talk about natural motion of the legs knees and hips, but have never actually shown how flats have anything to do with improving that. With flats, and the super sticky shoes and pedals you talk about, your feet are glued to the pedals laterally and you have no play or twisting float to allow the knees to rotate if they want to. Clipless pedals have float, usually about 5 degrees that allow your foot rotation.

The overuse injury statistic you bring up is certainly of concern on a broader scope of the machine that we chose to ride, but that statistic doesnt even take into account pedals, so even correlation is not proven, and trying to prove causation with correlation is a logical fallacy anyway.

Youre ‘mother nature’ argument hold no water either, as you havent shown how flats allow you to move more as though mother nature intends. In addition to the float of clipless pedals mentioned above, a clipless pedal allows you to better use the back stroke, which you brought up in your blog a few weeks ago. Flats are notorious for encouraging simple up and down mashing of the pedals.

Bottom line: clipless pedals are a valuable tool to have in the mountain bikers toolbox in addition to flat pedals. They are certainly no more dangerous than flat pedals, and have great advantages in many situations.

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 9:23 am

I know plenty of people who have not been able to get unclipped and got hurt. Many of them have stories on this sight and for you to pretend that just because you’ve never had an issue then it is a none issue for everyone is not a valid argument. Aaron gwin got his two front teeth knocked out when he couldn’t get unclipped, Gene Hamilton told me yesterday that being clipped in still spooks him some and I’ve personally heard from dozens of riders and come across a few others on the trail who got hurt because they could not get unclipped. So all of your points are not valid and simply your personal experience. That is the difference with most riders and myself – I deal with things on a much larger scale than them so just becuase they have never seen it doesn’t mean that it is not a problem. I just don’t get how intelligent riders such as yourself can pretend that most riders can become adept with clipless in 10 rides and never have any issues from then on amazes me.

And if you don’t see how having your feet strapped in shoes with stiff soles and arch support is less natural than the pliable soles and little to no arch support then I’m afraid we’ll just have to agree to disagree. You also can not mash up and down with flats, at least not for long. You have to learn how to scoop through the dead spot, something you don’t with clipless. We just don’t live in the same world if you truly think that clipless pedals don’t cause crashes and that they allow for more natural movement than flats with good shoes.

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I’ve posted in the past on this before. Didn’t read through all the posts but a good portion of some. To Trevor you didn’t keep pace on the ride on your slalom bike because of your flat pedals, you kept pace because you are obviously a good rider and in good shape.

I’ll say again I’ve ridden both quite extensively, and have always gone back to clipless (except for dirt jumping). I’ve never had a problem not getting out of clips (except for when I first go them about 13 years ago, they were shimanos, and set up way to tight). I feel more comfortable in them, and whether you want to call it cheating or not it’s a hell of a lot easier to pick the bike up when you are attached, it takes less work, and for me, racing downhill at a pretty high level I would want to have to put forth the least effort possible to perform a given movement. Kind of like lifting at high intensity, form breaks down and you start having to use more energy to perform the same lift.

As far as the float goes I would almost say there is less float on flats. I ride crank brothers clips which have quite a bit of float in them. I can recall from riding my flats and 5.10′s that when your foot is planted on the pedal it isn’t moving around at all, there is no float, in order for your foot to float you would have to either pick your foot up and move it, or experience a pretty hard impact, which in both cases your foot would come out of a clipless pedal anyway.

Last thought is on power, I still think you get more power out of a clipless set-up. Think about powerlifters or olympic lifters, they go barefoot, chuck taylors, or olympic shoes with wood soles, all of which have little to no give, why because if you were wearing a sneaker you’d lose power to the compression of the sneaker. I don’t see how that is any different here, I know my clipless shoes are way stiff and more solid than my 5.10s.

In the end I think it’s personal preference, I don’t think one is really better than the other, but if clipless pedals are too hard for you to use you probably shouldn’t be riding, at least not anything very difficult. And for those who pull up on the pedal, again you just need to learn how to ride a bike.

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 12:42 pm

You know, some would say that if you can’t ride without clipless pedals then you’re not very good and are instead an equipment dependent rider. Not me, just some people…

Are you really going to tell all the freeride/ slopestyle/ trail riders that don’t don’t clip in and yet slay trail like nobody’s business that they shouldn’t be riding becuase they don’t clip in? I know I’m on to something when people resort to statements like you last one – you have no real arguments against my points so you start getting personal.

Please find anywhere I’ve said that if you ride clipless pedals you suck. You may take that from what you’re reading but I’ve never said it, that is just your interpretation. I am just challenging people to explain to me why clipless pedals are so much better and that new riders need to use them. The fact that they can not and are instead grasping for straws and getting angry doesn’t mean I’m attacking them, just challenging them to think which tends to make people defensive and uncomfortable.

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Oh and James, I know you train the guy, so you’d know better than me, but from the races I’ve been to, and the footage I’ve seen I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Gwin clipped in more often than not.

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 12:29 pm

It’s funny everybody keeps bringing up Gwinny – yes he races in clipless pedals BUT he also busted both front teeth out when he couldn’t get unclipped on a trail ride and this whole thing started about a year ago when he mentioned in an interview that flats make you a better rider. The only reason he wears clipless is because he says they help keep in keep in place in rough corners so he can start pedaling away when he gets out but he is also a top 10 World Cup racer. Hardly a nail in the coffin for flats…

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I find it funny that people are complaining that this topic is brought up to often. I found this sight a couple months ago and have loved to see all the great info that James gives to people for FREE!! Its nice to see someone teaching people about movement! Most trainers don’t focus on moving correctly and try to build strength and performance on people that are full of dysfunction.
I use clipless because I was told that is the only way to go when I started riding. I have not had any problems with them…yet. I agree with all of James arguements against them. It completely makes sense. It is just like running with shoes that give us all sorts of support to make up for peoples poor movement patterns and bad running technique. I plan on trying some flats next year. I can’t knock it until ive tried it.
So if you agree great, if you disagree that is great to. You can ignore this topic, but pay attention to all the other things he is trying to teach you on this sight because it is all really good stuff, from all the foam rolling to the barefoot training, to keeping programs simple, and making sure you have a solid core. It is refreshing to see someone that really knows his stuff and is willing to share with everyone.

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“I know plenty of people who have not been able to get unclipped and got hurt.”

I’ve taken you to the emergency room twice James. Clearly that’s proof* that platform pedals are dangerous.

*my point being that anecdotes don’t prove shit and they are NOT proof of ANYTHING — and the arguments on both sides of this issue are 100% anecdote based and have devolved into simple name-calling (XC racing isn’t real mountain biking?).

This kind of thread is exactly why I don’t visit MTBR, Pinkbike or NSMB any more.

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

Dude, keep it in perspective. I never claimed that you will never get hurt wearing flats, in fact I have downplayed the “getting unclipped” aspect in this and previous posts. However, when people say that getting out of clipless pedals is effortles and no one gets hurt because of them is wrong and I had to say something so please keep my statement in context. And we both know those wrecks could have been worse if my bike had stayed attached.

And sorry but my argument is not based on anecdotes, that is the argument of the clipless defenders (I’ve never had a problem, so-and-so always clips in, etc.). I have presented a fact based argument grounded in functional movement and anatomy while also pointing out how the advantages of clipless are gained through feeding into a dysfunctional position and movement. No one has refuted my actual arguments. I’ve spelled out my points and asked for someone to prove me wrong and no one has.

So I’m sorry if your don’t like this discussion but it is necessary. There are a lot of riders out there who are pressured into clipless pedals and are worse off for it.

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I have been following this argument since it started for several reasons – my riding partner uses only flats and hangs with me riding clipless effortlessly and second, last year, I broke my ankle because I could not unclip fast enough to put a foot out to save me. My friend and I have had many spirited discussions on this subject and she has endured some continuous ribbing about her preference for flat pedals. I bought some 5-10′s and flat pedals this spring and gave it a go but experienced that performance dip you talked about, plus took some ribbing myself and quit. Now, I am ready to try again, this time I won’t expect too much too soon, realize I might have to slow down for a bit but honestly, the one thing I do remember is how much fun it was riding flats and how it gave me confidence to try stuff I wouldn’t in clips. I loved the wide base under my foot and I found myself flying through sections that normally would have backed me off. The two problems I had were with my feet coming off the pedals and trying to climb short, steep sections of trail, which don’t usually give me any trouble. Both of which, if I can stick with it, should improve with practice.

The idea of trying something new that has the potential to actually improve my skill level is really exciting. So, with that in mind, I am going to put the flats on for this afternoon’s ride!

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I for one would like to see James give clipless another chance. I think you should try clipless pedals for 30 days and then give another review.

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bikejames Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

Hell no, I like to have fun. Why would I switch? The reason I never tried them out was I kept waiting for the day that I was getting crushed on climbs by guys with clipless pedals. That never happened which was my first clue they were not all they were cracked up to be. Have you tried flats?

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I have definitely used flat pedals. I started off racing XC on flats, granted that was over 15 years ago, but I try them every once in a while on the trails. To be honest with you I find them really sketchy for any type of trail riding that involves any kind of downhill or tech sections. Right now I only ride flats regularly on my dirt jump/slalom bike.

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Alas, this has blown up into the typical (and far too common) cheap shots at the side the individual does not favor. Why? James has asked for something tangible, and hasn`t been offered what was asked for. I have ridden clipless for 13 (maybe 14…?) years on and off. I have committed to flats even for my XC riding, and the text I got from a friend of mine (who happens to be a pro rider) when I told him was “Damn dude. You are officially a badass.” LOL.

It`s ridiculous to take this debate (either side of it) personally. And it does seem that it`s the clipped in riders that make up a bigger portion of the people getting their feelings hurt by it. I think it may be because many clipless riders had to be convinced, at least a little bit, to try them. So they took a huge leap of faith, and it worked so they feel validated. They feel their initial fears were legit and they have overcome some mental obstacle, and now the idea of riding flats would mean their success with clipless is without value. I HAVE fallen because I couldn`t get unclipped. It was never moving very fast, and each time was unique. I have never, ever fallen because my feet blew off the pedals for no reason. I have slipped pedals trying to save a situation that was already a train wreck. Point? Falls happen. Regardless how yo`ure attached to your bike, falls happen. The question at hand is whether or not clipless pedals are better than flats. In general, IMO, no. I have personal evidence that clipless allows me to hit max speed a few feet sooner from a dead stop. In a bmx race, where you may only need 4 inches of lead over someone else to get an elbow in and force them behind you it makes a small advantage. But it`s also a 40 second race and you generally only get one chance to get ahead. On a mtb, even in a race situation, using my 25 years of riding/racing experience I do not believe clips are inherently better. I do believe that some riders develop techniques that utilize what clipless pedals offer, and that those techniques bypass some of the fundamental, basic skills flats force us to learn. Either way, I really don`t see the need to argue about it. Ride what you like. But if you`re going to get passionate about a debate, you`ve got to understand the other person`s point of view. That means actually getting on some platforms and riding them for a while if you`re a clipless rider, or getting yourself clipped in and doing the same riding you`d normally do on flats if you`re a platforms rider.

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To the posters saying that sticky shoes and flats results in the same repetitive injuries as a cleated shoe without any float, because they stick so well, i have to point out you’ve missed the key point. The little to zero float shoe has the potential not to damage because it has no float but, because every single stroke, every time is of the exact same foot/knee/hip orientation. As soon as a flat-pedal rider takes his foot off the pedal and puts it back the motion of the knee and hip will be a bit different. This is why i think clip-less riders are far more likely to get injuries like “runners knee” prematurely. Now some studies say runners knee is OK, but it is still an injury, and to be fair there is PLENTY of discussion around elsewhere about how to setup your cleats to avoid knee and hip pain or why you need special arch inserts for your clipless shoe. I find all that suspicious, particularly if you don’t need such aids while walking.

Again i just wanted to clarify, that just because a flat-pedal shoe is sticky on the pedal does not make it the same as a clipless pedal shoe.

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Gord is wrong. XC racers don’t really need to practice with clipless pedals. They are easy. Once you have used them for a few years, you can throw th back on the bike and pick up right where you left off. Clipless pedals are not hard to get out of and they usually do release in a crash anyway. That isn’t the issue. It’s the damage they cause to your body that is. To pedal well with flat pedals is actually more technically challanging… but worth the effort. Clipless pedals should be reserved for racing. I think of the ski analogy. (James is totally out of the loop on this one considering his clueless comments on the winter olympic. He’s obviously not a skier. But for a lot of us skiing will always be #1 and mountain biking a great adrenaline and training tool for skiing when there’s no snow.) You don’t use race skis for every day skiing. They are stiff and unforgiving with a narrow margin for error. You ski on more tuned down, wider skis that are more forgiving when you are sending that 40′ cliff in waist deep powder. Like freeride skis, flat pedals are just more fun.

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James is a bit of a fanatic on this subject. James rides in an area and gravitates toward a ride that validates consideration of flats. James doesn’t ride in a midwest XC oriented arena, not that he would, and Grand Junction simply can’t accommodate the rest of us.

This stated, I’ve built a bike for a local twisty trail that features flats. The rest of my rides clip. Tonight, my feet and knees hurt in the clips, but I was riding different; I was sitting through my climbs, and the pedals had my larger joints locked into a repetitive motion that has become unfamiliar.

I don’t know the answer–I would ride the clips/that bike again on that ride, and I know I love my flats = multifactorial consideration. Ride, bike, physical condition, trail condition, and bike setup relate. James is oversimplifying, and his soapbox is public.

His soapbox is public because he provides a service and insight unique to our sport that caters uniquely to our interests. As an Osteopathic Physician and longtime student/disciple of James’ principles, I have to point out that I have *never* read anything here that didn’t make valid biomechanical sense in this blog.

Keep up the good work James, you speak a lot of truth. This issue is more complex than the logic you’ve assigned it however, and your continued commentary approaches a narrow sighted standpoint. Your arguments are not scientific (nor are mine). If there is no evidence to support either side of this debate, each side stands on speculative and circumstantial footing (by definition).

Agree or disagree, consider it food for thought, then go for a ride (or foamroll, or split squat, or drink a beer). Emotion serves no purpose–either as a origin or as a response in this debate.

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One thing I’ve noticed with flat pedals is that you really have to press into them more instead of mindless spinning. Will this use more energy on a really long ride? Probably… but so what? Unless you are in a race it doesn’t matter. But the advantage of having to press more is that even when you are sitting, it is more like you are pedaling standing up which is good for you. Because after all, what mortal can really stand the whole ride? Since I switched to flats, my chronic low back/hip pain has subsided even though I’m really only truly standing less than 5% of the time. (which is still more than I used to) But it’s have to push with the feet more that helped.

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“If there is no evidence to support either side of this debate, each side stands on speculative and circumstantial footing (by definition).”

“Agree or disagree, consider it food for thought, then go for a ride (or foamroll, or split squat, or drink a beer). Emotion serves no purpose–either as a origin or as a response in this debate.”

Point, and match.

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Attachment sucks! And I don’t mean to your pedals. Attachment to your beliefs to your ideas, thoughts etc. leave no room for expansion. There is no doubt that since I started the DB combos I have become a better rider. Then standing and pedaling more as James suggests took me to a new level. Now he is saying that I should look at riding flats because of this and this and this.

So I am thinking that James has really helped me so far, so I was willing to give it a try. I had always ridden flats until 10 years ago it was suggested when I bought a new bike to go clipless. So James offered a carrot and I took it.

Going flats has been a good decision for me. I am riding much more aggresively and pain in my ankles has gone away and my hip is hurting less. Also I am having much more fun on the woodwork.
Yes I also am seeing less pulling power and lifting the bike stuff but I am convinced its just a matter of learning a new tecnique.

To take James advice it helped to be honest with myself and say “yes I am hurting” and maybe it’s not “just the way it is.”

Deciding to try something new worked but if it hadn’t I would just say thank you very much James and here is your carrot back.

On another note I have been riding mtb with my brother for close to 25 years and he has never had clips and he kicks ass. We both entered a demanding mtb race in the over 50 sport catagory this summer and he got first place in his first ever race. He was also 5th over all of all the men sport racers. He kicked me by 13 minutes, James we got some work to do:)

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James is there an illustration, article or video on the ideal pedal technique? I have been riding flats since the late 70s and also tried clipless for spells. I prefer flats, but I want to know a bit more about the ideal posture, position of the foot on the pedal, an illustration of the scoop motion etc.. I ride flats on rolling 1track for several hours straight several days a week, and I usually keep the seat low and stand through most of the climbs. I seem to get a sore knee when putting around on the seat BMX style or going to and from the trails. Nothing a stretch and rest don’t cure, but I kinda think it’s may be general use pain that I’d get from too much trail running or even too many squats.

So to questions I guess – What is the bad pedaling that can cause front knee pain and is there an illustration of the ideal pedaling method?

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blah blah blah. This is a very boring argument.

Some people love clipless and don’t have any problems with them so they should run them. Others love flats. Great. Those guys should rock the flat pedals. Everyone else should just try for themselves and see what works and makes them happy.

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Hello! My husband, Jeremy, has been following you for some time now and has adopted your training regime… so that’s how I came to be aware of you and your training philosophies.

I grew up in a bike shop and spent time in my early adolescence tagging far behind on team rides. Life happened, I didn’t stick with cycling, and I started smoking… I’ve always been the slightly overweight girl with a small self-esteem…

…fast forward through time. 1.5 years ago I quit smoking for the last time… Jeremy and I quickly realized that the only way to stay quit would be to radically transform our lives. We changed our lifestyle and I dropped 25 pounds in the process. We adopted yoga, strength training, and mountain biking coupled with a nutrient dense diet, etc. to maintain our physical and mental strength.

I bought my first mountain bike in April 2009. The guys at the bike shop convinced me to go clipless. It was one of those moments when something inside you goes “not a good idea” but you don’t know better, trust the professionals, and go for it.

May 2009- face planted on the downhill with my bike still attached to my feet. My pretty face stayed pretty (thank God)… but my confidence level on the bike plummeted. I was filled with fear of the trail… and of not being able to unclip if I got into a bad situation. Believe it or not, somehow I managed to ride clipless pedals and shoes until March 2010 without actually clipping in! (Talk about losing power when you’re pushing down on several cm of surface area…) More frustration ensued.

I was awarded the prestigious teacher of the year award and we planned an out west trip to celebrate. Slickrock was on the list. I spent WEEKS TERRIFIED of being clipped in on that trail. The anxiety was incomprehensible and permeated my consciousness. I was completely overcome by the fear and anxiety of being in Moab on those damn pedals. Luckily I survived the trail and trip in one piece. (Probably because I was so overcautious and avoided every possible risk.)

I started to think critically about this pedal paradigm. I remembered being a kid and feeling so FREE and having so much FUN on my bike… why didn’t I feel that way now I wondered? I started asking Jeremy about flats…

… then he found YOU. It’s as if we needed someone -YOU- to affirm what we already knew in regards to flat pedals.

It may sound silly- but changing to flats has been the best decision I’ve made in a long time. I immediately felt like a kid again… I attempted parts of trails that I had always been terrified of and had always hiked the bike… and was successful! I’m SO FAST on the downhill… I mean I can keep up with the “big boys” on the downhill. I’m blessed with a strong body of which strength training has certainly benefitted from so I’m able to pump so hard and go so fast. Who needs a dirt bike when you have these legs?! HA!

I challenge other mountain bikers in their paradigm about clipless. My favorite conversation was with a bunch of guys from a bicycle company. I let them take their turns about telling their horrific crash and injury stories… then asked “Were y’all clipped in” and they looked at me like I had two heads. Of course they were… I reminded them of the freedom they felt riding bikes as children… and that they didn’t have fancy pants pedals then- so what gives?! One person even asked me “how to you stay attached to your bike” and I’m like “you press DOWN on your pedals… right?!” Seriously… in talking with mountain bikers, the common denominator with crashes and injury are the FRIGGIN’ clipless pedals. WHAT THE F**K?!

So thank you for being out there, starting the dialogue and taking the heat when people’s paradigms are threatened and they lash out… you’re doing God’s work. That may sound hokey, but I’m serious about that.

I’m stronger, bolder, more calculated on the trail with my flats. I have so much more fun then I ever did clipped in (which is kinda tragic because we rode some epic trails out west when I was still a slave to the clips…)

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! A silly facebook message doesn’t come close to conveying my gratitude to you. You’re a badass who has empowered at least one female cyclist, and I hope you own that!

I continue to hound people, especially new riders and the guys at my bike shop (“DO NOT TELL NEW mtn bike riders to convert to CLIPLESS- WTF guys?! You’re road bikers- not mountain bikers… it’s different, trust me!”), about the joys of sticking with the tried and true flats.

The love affair between my bike and me continue to grow… I think that if I still had clips on her, she’d be gathering dust in the garage… and I’d be back putting on the pounds. (I mean I do live in Beer City USA after all…)

I greatly appreciate you and your work. You’ve impacted my life whether you choose to be my facebook friend or not…

Cheers to doing the right thing!

Happy Trails!
~Sarah Duffer

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Here is a study showing that clipless pedals are more efficient, toe clips are second in efficiency, and flat pedals are the least efficient:

The Effect Of Different Pedal Types On Maximal Oxygen Consumption And Lactic Acid Accumulation.
Abstract
Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 24 Supplement 1:1, January 2010.
Hiebert, Jean M; Hoover, Don L; Best, Michael A; Black, Ashlie B; Hruska, Ryan K; Jones, Mariah E

Abstract:
Cycling efficiency is dependent upon many factors such as bike set up, body position, and pedaling cadence. These and other factors often have a large influence on both performance and risk of injury. One parameter not fully understood is the influence of available pedal systems on cycling efficiency, and little scientific literature exists on this topic. To determine the effect of different pedal systems on maximal oxygen consumption ([latin capital V with dot above]o2max) and lactic acid production during direct testing of maximal aerobic power. Nine healthy recreational cyclists (7 males and 2 females; 36.11 +/- 7.7 years) volunteered to participate in the study. On average, subjects cycled 3-4 times per week for 1-2 hours at a moderate to high intensity. Subjects performed a maximal bicycle graded exercise test on their own bicycle, using one of three pedal systems on different occasions. Pedal systems included: 1) flat pedals, 2) toe-clip pedals, and 3) clipless pedals, and the order of the pedal systems was randomized. Riding resistance was provided by a computer controlled bicycle ergometer and trainer. Initial resistance was based on a 1:1 power (watts) to individual body weight (kg) ratio and increased 2:1, 3:1, etc. every two minutes until subjects were unable to maintain a pedal cadence of at least 50 revolutions per minute. Gas exchange was analyzed using a portable metabolic system. A portable lactate analyzer was used to measure lactic acid levels prior to the test, upon completion of the test, and at 3, 5 and 7 minutes post-test or until values returned to baseline. A one-way ANOVA with repeated measures was conducted to evaluate the relationship between pedal type and the dependent variables, oxygen consumption and lactic acid production. While there were differences in performance under the three pedal conditions, these differences were not statistically significant for either the oxygen consumption or the lactic acid production. Participants produced higher average [latin capital V with dot above]o2 values during the clipless condition. Lactic acid accumulation was highest in the flat pedal condition. Lastly, when using the clipless pedals, participants achieved peak lactic acid levels at relatively higher oxygen consumption measures when compared to the flat pedal or toe-clip pedal conditions. Pedal condition did not produce statistically significant differences in maximal oxygen consumption or in lactic acid during a graded exercise test. However, these findings may be clinically meaningful, as statistically significant difference often may not exist within a given group of cyclists, whether the group be performing at a local amateur cycling event or an event such as the Tour de France. Participants produced higher average O2 max values during the clipless condition, suggesting this condition may be more efficient as is commonly believed. Lactic acid accumulation was highest in the flat condition, suggesting participants may have been least efficient when pedaling in this condition. Likewise, the achievement of peak lactic acid levels at relatively higher oxygen consumption further suggests the clipless pedals promote higher performance levels when compared to the flat and toe-clip conditions. Our findings suggesting clipless pedals allow for greater efficiency and result in higher performance. Further study is necessary to investigate these potentially clinically meaningful findings.

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bikejames Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 6:59 am

Great research, appreciate you bringing it to the table. I do find it interesting how the authors admit that there is little science behind the claims of better efficiency in the first place. Here is another study that was forwarded to me coming to the opposite conclusion. I still think that it comes down more to what you know vs. what is “best” with pedal interface but when you add in the possibility of clipless contributing to overuse injuries I still think that flats make more sense for mountain biking.

Here’s the complete citation:
Mornieux G, Stapelfeldt B, Gollhofer A, & Belli A. (2008). Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling. International Journal of Sports Medicine. 29(10), 817-22.

And abstract:
“The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.”

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Ok, two weeks on flats after 9 years riding clipless. One, fun factor is off the chart! It just feels good bombing downhills and pumping berms, riding rock gardens with more confidence. Very cool! I have noticed no difference in climbing but I do have to look farther down the trail and plan ahead, which is good riding anyway. The pedals just feel GOOD under my feet, esp. after riding Eggbeaters for so many years. I do move around on them some, sometimes it’s hard to get them where I want them on my feet. But no big deal.

The only thing that’s bothersome right now is that I still have a tendency to lift up, esp. when climbing, so I’m having to remind myself to push down all the time. That’s just muscle memory and will improve with time. But the confidence I feel riding rock gardens and downhills is totally worth some initial mistakes. I can even ride my singlespeed just as fast, so I say, try it out! If you don’t like it, you can always go back but you have to give it enough time to a slightly different feeling pedaling technique. And I have found that you CAN pull across the very bottom of the stroke without slipping as well. It’s working for me!

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bikejames Reply:
August 9th, 2010 at 11:22 am

Awesome news, glad that your seeing the big picture. You’ll figure out the pedal stroke thing soon enough and in the meantime you can relax and have more fun – a decent trade off in my book!

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James, first of all, many thanks for a great blog / web site!

I’ve ridden clipless for so many years now I struggle to remember. Actually, make it about 13 or 14 years – and unfortunately put a big 10 year break in the middle there for mountainbiking (started again Dec08). I’d struggle big time to make the switch to flats on the MTB, however after reading your blog I’ve reconsidered my pedaling technique and after doing lots of deadlifts, squats etc it is now much easier for me to stand up during the hill climbs and make sure to put the power into the downward stroke. So it might not all be lost for SPDs?

I’m noticing improvements already … cleared the You Yangs Rockwell Run climb, and only had to get off the bike once on the Junction Track climb of the You Yangs in Australia. Moving from my 1998 Y22 to a 2010 Hifi 29″er (I’m 1.89m – or ~6.3) with tubeless, disc brakes and what have you might have had something to do with that too, however what really clears the track is explosive power pushed down on the pedals. I was no longer using the granny but rather letting the power rip from my legs .. that was the biggest difference on my last ride.

Budget’s well and truly spent, save for maybe an adjustable seat post like the upcoming RockShox, but still, if I spot a good deal on some flats … I might be tempted.

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I rode clipless pedals since I started MTBing until switching to flats at the end of last season.

When new riders start out with flats they typically have pedals that suck and wear tennis shoes. They go for a few rides and see everyone else riding clipless, all they hear is you gotta go cliplless, and most of the LBS are pushing clipless. So the new rider that’s been riding on their sucky flats and shoes goes and buys a clipless system and they obviously have a better experience and they now have the clipless are better than flats mentality albeit with the increased danger.

For example I coach along with James for BetterRide and I had a student two camps ago that was a brand new rider with a brand new Stumpjumper Carbon Expert and it had plastic pedals with reflectors! I said to myself WTF this guy just dropped $4,000+ on a bike and has $10.00 pedals. My assumption is that the LBS a. didn’t stock any good flat pedals or b. said you’ll want to go clipless so no reason investing in a pair of good flats.

I contend that “most” riders would have a better MTB experience and more fun if they invested $150.00 – $175.00 in a nice pair of flats and 5-10′s. I know I’m having more fun.

I also contend that if a rider is stronger and more skilled they will out ride another rider regardless of what type of pedals, bike, wheels and latest and greatest gizzo there is. Unless you’re at the pro level or a hard core racer ride what puts the biggest grin on your face and don’t worry about what everyone else is doing or thinks.

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